I want my casino simulator

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I want my casino simulator

Post by Martin III » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:36 pm

Many years ago, I had a casino simulation game on my PC. It was great. Blackjack, craps, roulette... it had it all. Me and the rest of the family practically fought for turns with it.

That PC has long since gone bye-bye, and since then the craving for a good casino simulator on home console has been slowly growing within me. Unfortunately, my favorite console, the Saturn, is a bit light on that genre. I purchased the only casino simulator released for the Saturn outside Japan, Virtual Casino. It's... not bad, but 7-card stud is the only one of the five games included which I really enjoy playing (check out my review on GameFAQs for more details [/shameless plug]). And most of the Japanese casino titles are just cheap slot machine simulators. Unless I'm mistaken, the 3DO doesn't have any such games.

So, can anyone recommend me a good casino simulator for the Wii? Despite how this topic sounds, I'm not really a fanatic for the genre, but I would like to have just one solid casino simulator to play during quickie gaming sessions.

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Austin » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:23 pm

I'm not sure about the Wii, but I know there's Hoyle Casino on the Dreamcast (provided you have one of those). I haven't played it, but I'd assume it's decent considering that series was once pretty popular on the PC.

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Lemmi » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:58 am

heh if you have the TG16 you could play King of Casino
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS0lwBp-IlE

pretty cool game for its time with many casinos to play in
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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Martin III » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:13 am

Hmm... I do have a Dreamcast, but I don't have it hooked up very often, it being the very worst console I have ever owned. ...Still, if I can find it for cheap, I might give that one a grab. It does look like a great casino simulator.

Sadly, I don't have a TG16. Doesn't look like King of Casino made it to the Wii's Virtual Console, either.

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Austin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:15 am

Martin III wrote:it being the very worst console I have ever owned
Please tell me you're joking! :shock:

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Martin III » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:16 am

Austin wrote:
Martin III wrote:it being the very worst console I have ever owned
Please tell me you're joking! :shock:
Nope, no joke. Mediocre graphics (and this is coming from someone who got theirs at launch), unnecessarily bulky controller, noisy low-capacity memory cartridges, rapidly yellowing body, and a games library which is missing several of my favorite franchises from the Saturn. Plus, I'm an RPG fanatic, and the Dreamcast's RPG library leaves a lot to be desired.

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Austin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:32 am

:cry:

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Trev » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:24 pm

Martin III wrote:
Austin wrote:
Martin III wrote:it being the very worst console I have ever owned
Please tell me you're joking! :shock:
Nope, no joke. Mediocre graphics (and this is coming from someone who got theirs at launch), unnecessarily bulky controller, noisy low-capacity memory cartridges, rapidly yellowing body, and a games library which is missing several of my favorite franchises from the Saturn. Plus, I'm an RPG fanatic, and the Dreamcast's RPG library leaves a lot to be desired.

I can agree with you on several of these things, but the graphics being mediocre ...? :? Absolutely not! Unless you gamed exclusively on high end pc's, absolutely nothing could touch the DC's visuals!

As for rpg's, it's more of a quality quanity thing (sounds like Nintendo, lol) Skies of Arcadia, Phantasy Star, Grandia, Shenmue (if you count it as an rpg)

I loved my DC ( my launch day unit keeps running strong!) I still think it has a fantastic library of innovative, great looking games!
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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Martin III » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:44 am

Trev wrote:As for rpg's, it's more of a quality quanity thing
Which of the two are you thinking the Dreamcast has? I find it weak on both fronts. Quality-wise, it's notably lacking in a true standout RPG to compare with Xenoblade Chronicles on the Wii, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance on the GameCube, Slayer on the 3DO, Ys Books I and II on the Turbo CD, Chrono Trigger on the SNES, and about a half dozen such RPGs on the Saturn. As for quantity, I'll admit it did a more than reasonable job as far as how many made it to the USA, but if you look at the imports, there's not much more there. The Dreamcast's total RPG library is scarcely larger than the 3DO's, despite being backed by a company with several RPG franchises.

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Trev » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:09 am

Martin III wrote:
Trev wrote:As for rpg's, it's more of a quality quanity thing
Which of the two are you thinking the Dreamcast has? I find it weak on both fronts. Quality-wise, it's notably lacking in a true standout RPG to compare with Xenoblade Chronicles on the Wii, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance on the GameCube, Slayer on the 3DO, Ys Books I and II on the Turbo CD, Chrono Trigger on the SNES, and about a half dozen such RPGs on the Saturn. As for quantity, I'll admit it did a more than reasonable job as far as how many made it to the USA, but if you look at the imports, there's not much more there. The Dreamcast's total RPG library is scarcely larger than the 3DO's, despite being backed by a company with several RPG franchises.
Quality over quanity.

Skies of Arcadia, Phantasy Star Online, and both Shenmues (Shenmue was the most visually impressive console game ever at that time) are among my favorite rpgs still to this day. Some DC rpgs were only okay (the Evolution games & Time Stalkers come to mind) but I think the consoles best are certainly standout titles in the opinion of many critics & gamers ... they certainly are in my case.
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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Martin III » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:43 pm

I found Evolution 2 a lot more than okay. Some more content, a few menu mechanics fixed up, and I'd have put it as the Dreamcast's standout RPG. Timestalkers, on the other end, is the Dreamcast's Plan 9 From Outer Space, i.e. so laughably bad that its awfulness provides more entertainment than its good points. If you want an "okay" RPG on the Dreamcast, try Grandia II or Silver. Both are mediocrity at its best.

Skies of Arcadia is a great RPG, but I really wouldn't call it standout. It's too easy, and the graphics are average, even by Dreamcast standards. That probably sounds too picky, so for a simpler analysis, just hold Skies of Arcadia up to something like Slayer, and it becomes apparent that SoA doesn't reach quite that high.

When you get down to it, Phantasy Star Online is really just a showcase for the Dreamcast's internet connection. The core gameplay experience is decent but not exceptional, or even great. Even the game's manual admits that the offline mode was almost an afterthought.

I not only wouldn't call Shenmue an RPG, I don't understand where the notion that it's an RPG comes from, aside from a knee-jerk reaction to call any big production game an RPG. My brother got it back in the day and was very psyched about it; he was always the one with an ear to the gaming press and grapevine. I watched him play it a lot and couldn't fathom what the hype was about. An endless steam of pointless activities, voice acting that is as flat as it gets, and the same old Lego-block Dreamcast graphics that were ugly even at launch (simply because the Saturn and PlayStation had already shown us smoother 3D figures) didn't seem to be the answer. I was much more impressed by Virtua Fighter 3tb. My brother himself has said he found Shenmue a disappointment, though perhaps most tellingly, to this day he hasn't bothered to get Shenmue 2.

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Trev » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:11 pm

Martin III wrote: I not only wouldn't call Shenmue an RPG, I don't understand where the notion that it's an RPG comes from, aside from a knee-jerk reaction to call any big production game an RPG. My brother got it back in the day and was very psyched about it; he was always the one with an ear to the gaming press and grapevine. I watched him play it a lot and couldn't fathom what the hype was about. An endless steam of pointless activities, voice acting that is as flat as it gets, and the same old Lego-block Dreamcast graphics that were ugly even at launch (simply because the Saturn and PlayStation had already shown us smoother 3D figures) didn't seem to be the answer. I was much more impressed by Virtua Fighter 3tb. My brother himself has said he found Shenmue a disappointment, though perhaps most tellingly, to this day he hasn't bothered to get Shenmue 2.
If you think Immercenary is an rpg, I'm not sure how you can think Shenmue isn't ... but it isn't really a big deal, as Shenmue blends many genres. If anything, Shenmue is a spiritual successor to point n click graphic adventures imo.

If you've played and beaten the Shenmue games and didn't care for them much, that's fair enough ... the game divided many gamers. Saying that Shenmues graphics "were ugly even at launch" and that "the Saturn & Playstation had already shown us smoother 3D figures" though has to be one of the most absurd comments I've ever seen posted on this forum! Good thing I already know you, or I'd suspect you were a troll with nonsense posts like that. :P
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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Martin III » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:06 am

Trev wrote:If you think Immercenary is an rpg, I'm not sure how you can think Shenmue isn't ... but it isn't really a big deal, as Shenmue blends many genres. If anything, Shenmue is a spiritual successor to point n click graphic adventures imo.

If you've played and beaten the Shenmue games and didn't care for them much, that's fair enough ... the game divided many gamers. Saying that Shenmues graphics "were ugly even at launch" and that "the Saturn & Playstation had already shown us smoother 3D figures" though has to be one of the most absurd comments I've ever seen posted on this forum! Good thing I already know you, or I'd suspect you were a troll with nonsense posts like that. :P
I don't follow how Shenmue is similar to Immercenary. Granted, I haven't played Shenmue myself, but just going by what I've seen, I'd have said that they're drastically different games on almost every point. Can you elaborate?

Indeed, Shenmue does divide gamers, and to those who thoroughly enjoyed it, I say more power to you.

As the graphics, though, check out later releases for the Saturn and PlayStation and you will indeed see smoother figures. (Don't know why you find that statement so controversial; I'm hardly the first person to comment on the Dreamcast's blocky graphics.) I know that the popular wisdom of hardcore gamers is that the Dreamcast's big blocks are more appealing, but I like smooth graphics, even if they're less impressive from a programming standpoint. Anyway, the game libraries of the PlayStation 2, GameCube, and Xbox clearly make the Dreamcast look like a previous generation console, whether or not you recognized the same thing by looking at its predecessors.

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by 3DO Experience » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:48 am

Martin III wrote:I not only wouldn't call Shenmue an RPG, I don't understand where the notion that it's an RPG comes from...
Role Playing Game.
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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Trev » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:09 am

Martin III wrote:
Trev wrote:If you think Immercenary is an rpg, I'm not sure how you can think Shenmue isn't ... but it isn't really a big deal, as Shenmue blends many genres. If anything, Shenmue is a spiritual successor to point n click graphic adventures imo.

If you've played and beaten the Shenmue games and didn't care for them much, that's fair enough ... the game divided many gamers. Saying that Shenmues graphics "were ugly even at launch" and that "the Saturn & Playstation had already shown us smoother 3D figures" though has to be one of the most absurd comments I've ever seen posted on this forum! Good thing I already know you, or I'd suspect you were a troll with nonsense posts like that. :P
I don't follow how Shenmue is similar to Immercenary. Granted, I haven't played Shenmue myself, but just going by what I've seen, I'd have said that they're drastically different games on almost every point. Can you elaborate?
Indeed they are very different, and I failed to clarify ... what I meant was that Immercenary (imo) is a 1st person shooter/adventure with light rpg elements. If you would classify it as an rpg ... well, Shenmue has even more rpg aspects. The games themselves aren't similar, but their genre blurring aspects are.
Martin III wrote:As the graphics, though, check out later releases for the Saturn and PlayStation and you will indeed see smoother figures. (Don't know why you find that statement so controversial; I'm hardly the first person to comment on the Dreamcast's blocky graphics.)
Even the absolute most brutal Shenmue critics were totally drolling over it's graphics ... I could literally (w/little effort) yank dozens of quotes from numerous gaming mags, sites, etc.. saying they were (at the time of course) the best graphics ever seen in a video game! Conversely I have serious doubts that you could even find one (outside of Sony fanboys and Vance :wink: )

Gameplay is easy to have different opinions on ... the technical brillance of graphics that were years ahead of it's time, not so much. Shenmue shamed even 1st gen PS2 releases, never mind what the Saturn, PSX, or N64 were putting out. I'm was just truly flabbergasted ... not as much that you didn't acknowledge how stunning the game looked, but that you can call its graphics "mediocre " & "ugly"with a straight face. Other Dreamcast games perhaps, but certainly not Shenmue!

That said, I'd be very interested to discover a Playstation or Saturn game that even approached Shenmues visuals, so please do share.
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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Austin » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:48 am

I wasn't a massive fan of Shenmue, but I can definitely say the graphics were stunning when it was released. I picked it up on day one, and I literally had to pick my jaw up off the floor after the intro was finished. I hadn't seen real-time engine-driven cutscenes that realistic up to that point, period. As far as how the game was, well, we all know it's divisive. I sit somewhere in the middle, as I only played it for a few hours and spent most of my time dumping my allowance into vending machines and the Hang-On arcade game. One of these days I'll get back to it. One of these days.

As far as the Dreamcast visuals overall, like any system, it's going to be a mixed bag. On one end you have rushed conversions of Nintendo 64 and PlayStation games (Test Drive 6, Roadsters, etc), but on the other end, you have wildly polished games that still look nice today (Soul Calibur, Ferarri F355 Challenge, etc). I think it's unfair to lump them all into one simple "blocky" category, because that's simply not true as a whole. You have games that look really dated (NFL Quarterback Club 2000), and you have games that don't (Ikaruga). As far as the ones that aren't uber-polished, at least many of them are still colorful and run at 60 frames per second. That lends many of the games in its library to hold up better from at least a gameplay perspective than many of the games of the PSX/Saturn/N64 era. Even some garbage ones, like Soul Fighter.

Regarding role playing games on the Dreamcast, it's definitely not as affluent with them as other systems. To be fair though, the thing was only out on the market in the US for a solid two years before most publishers began withdrawing support for it. Perhaps had it been around longer, we would have seen more. What it has though I think is a decent-enough bunch. Some were pretty well regarded back in the day (Grandia II and Skies of Arcadia), whereas others were seen as hit or miss depending on your tastes (the Evolution series and Timestalkers). Others that are more "action/adventure" or "action/rpg" are beginning to take hold now as superb hidden gems that the majority skipped over back in the day (Elemental Gimmick Gear and Record of Lodoss War).

Regarding the comment comparing Slayer (in "greatness") to other heavy hitter RPGs out there, I.. don't know what to say to that. It's clear you thoroughly enjoy the game (as do many here), but to classify it with some of the most well-regarded games of all time? Well, surely the average gamer will think you are simply crazy. That isn't meant to come off as offensive--more so that I don't think anyone outside of this forum will understand your perspective, that is all. I know most of the folks here have unique opinions (myself included, surely), so I'll leave it at that.

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by 3DO Experience » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:31 pm

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Austin » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:42 pm

Isn't that what we do best here? :lol:

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Trev » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:28 pm

The new look of the 3DO Forums might still be confusing some ... thread derailments serve as an assurance that, yes, this is still the same community.
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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Martin III » Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:39 pm

Trev wrote:Indeed they are very different, and I failed to clarify ... what I meant was that Immercenary (imo) is a 1st person shooter/adventure with light rpg elements. If you would classify it as an rpg ... well, Shenmue has even more rpg aspects. The games themselves aren't similar, but their genre blurring aspects are.
Immercenary's RPG elements are hardly "light". You yourself noted that you have to level up your stats to have even a chance of progressing through the game.
Trev wrote:Even the absolute most brutal Shenmue critics were totally drolling over it's graphics ... I could literally (w/little effort) yank dozens of quotes from numerous gaming mags, sites, etc.. saying they were (at the time of course) the best graphics ever seen in a video game! Conversely I have serious doubts that you could even find one (outside of Sony fanboys and Vance :wink: )
I don't know what to tell you, Trev... Like I said, we had the game on release day, and it definitely wasn't too impressive back then. I'll ask my brother if he can provide some explanation of how the graphics were supposed to be "ahead of its time" (he's a programming genius, and works as a software programmer and website designer), but honestly, I seem to remember that I asked him the same thing at the time and that he didn't have much answer for me.
Austin wrote:I wasn't a massive fan of Shenmue, but I can definitely say the graphics were stunning when it was released. I picked it up on day one, and I literally had to pick my jaw up off the floor after the intro was finished.
No, you figuratively had to pick your jaw up off the floor. If you literally had to pick your jaw up off the floor, you should have been checking in with your doctor to see if you have a completely out-of-control infection rather than blaming it on the last video game you played.
Austin wrote:Regarding role playing games on the Dreamcast, it's definitely not as affluent with them as other systems. To be fair though, the thing was only out on the market in the US for a solid two years before most publishers began withdrawing support for it. Perhaps had it been around longer, we would have seen more.
The Saturn, a system supported by the same company and from the same era, got more RPGs in its first two years than the Dreamcast did in its lifetime. So really, you could as easily make the same argument in favor of the Jaguar's RPG lineup. :P
Austin wrote:Regarding the comment comparing Slayer (in "greatness") to other heavy hitter RPGs out there, I.. don't know what to say to that. It's clear you thoroughly enjoy the game (as do many here), but to classify it with some of the most well-regarded games of all time? Well, surely the average gamer will think you are simply crazy. That isn't meant to come off as offensive--more so that I don't think anyone outside of this forum will understand your perspective, that is all. I know most of the folks here have unique opinions (myself included, surely), so I'll leave it at that.
Slayer is a niche title, of course. But I don't see reason to rate a game any lower simply because it doesn't have the lowest common denominator as its target audience. Look at it this way: if a game appeals to you, does whether it appeals to the majority of gamers make any difference to your liking for it?

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Trev » Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:14 pm

Again. I don't deny Immerenary has rpg elements, but leveling up alone doesn't neccesarily an rpg make. There are a bunch of rpg staples that Immercenary simply doesn't have. If an avid rpg gamer went into Immercenary thinking it was an rpg, they might be dissapointed by how few (if any) there are of puzzles, magic, side quests, npc's, etc ... There isn't even an party element in Immercenary ... it's you playing solo in a land that (by rpg standards) would be tiny. I personally feel calling Immercenary an rpg is a stretch ... but my point was that Shenmue has lots of elements where an argument could be made that it's an rpg too ... it you played the games through to completion my hunch is that you'd agree.

As far as the graphics go, I don' think there is much more to be said. If you still think Shenmue had ugly & mediocre graphics, I can't imagine any video game would have impressed you from a visual standpoint, since none could really compare. Again, just try and find a PSX/Saturn/N64 game with even comprable visuals ... The fact is, Shenmue was pulling off graphics that simply were not possible on the aging consoles at that time ... it wasn't until 2nd generation PS2 games that developers had both the hardware, and the know-how to match it.
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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Austin » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:00 am

Martin III wrote:No, you figuratively had to pick your jaw up off the floor. If you literally had to pick your jaw up off the floor, you should have been checking in with your doctor to see if you have a completely out-of-control infection rather than blaming it on the last video game you played.
Awwwww, that's no fun! :wink:
Austin wrote:The Saturn, a system supported by the same company and from the same era, got more RPGs in its first two years than the Dreamcast did in its lifetime. So really, you could as easily make the same argument in favor of the Jaguar's RPG lineup. :P
It wasn't so much an argument as much as it was a simple statement. However, I think you may have your facts wrong. Let's see:

RPGs on the US Dreamcast from 1999 - 2001:

Time Stalkers
Evolution
Evolution 2
Grandia II
Skies of Arcadia
Record of Lodoss War
Phantasy Star Online/Phantasy Star Online V2

That's discounting EGG, as it's more Zelda-esque than anything. That's also discounting that you can play Phantasy Star II and Shining Force via the Sega Smash Pack. Aaaand I went ahead and discounted Silver as well, because I don't remember if it was XP oriented or not.. It's been a while since I played it. It may very well just be in the action/adventure genre.

RPGs on the US Saturn from 1995 - 1997:

Shining the Holy Ark
Dragon Force (strat/rpg)
Mystaria/Blazing Heroes
Albert Odyssey
Virtual Hydlide

..a few extra in 1998, the Saturn's last year in the US: Shining Force III and Panzer Dragoon Saga.

That's discounting Magic Knight Rayearth, Legend of Oasis, Shining Wisdom and Dark Savior, as they are more Zelda-esque than anything (action/adventure genre).
Martin III wrote:Slayer is a niche title, of course. But I don't see reason to rate a game any lower simply because it doesn't have the lowest common denominator as its target audience. Look at it this way: if a game appeals to you, does whether it appeals to the majority of gamers make any difference to your liking for it?
You have a very good point, but comparing a game that is flawed from a technical standpoint to some of the generally-accepted all time greats, leads people like me not to trust your word when you make bold statements like that. Just sayin'. A better comparison may have been Lucienne's Quest. :)

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Martin III » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:02 pm

Trev wrote:Again. I don't deny Immerenary has rpg elements, but leveling up alone doesn't neccesarily an rpg make. There are a bunch of rpg staples that Immercenary simply doesn't have. If an avid rpg gamer went into Immercenary thinking it was an rpg, they might be dissapointed by how few (if any) there are of puzzles, magic, side quests, npc's, etc ... There isn't even an party element in Immercenary ... it's you playing solo in a land that (by rpg standards) would be tiny. I personally feel calling Immercenary an rpg is a stretch ... but my point was that Shenmue has lots of elements where an argument could be made that it's an rpg too ... it you played the games through to completion my hunch is that you'd agree.
I'll give Shenmue a shot when I get a chance and let you know. I've been meaning to try the game out for curiosity's sake anyway... after all, it's just collecting dust in my basement storage, so it's not like I have to spend money on it.

As for Immercenary, I'm sorry, but your argument is the same as saying that The Sword of Truth books aren't fantasy because they don't have enough elves and dragons in them. (Actually, a closer analogy would be saying a book isn't fantasy if it doesn't have enough hobbits and evil magic rings, because I find it hard to think of even one video game that has all the elements you list. For starters, Skies of Arcadia is the only game on the Dreamcast which fits your definition!) Genres aren't defined by their staples.

As a side note, the land in Immercenary is even tinier by 1st person shooter standards than it is by RPG standards, so I really don't know why you chose to bring that up if you're advocating the idea that Immercenary is a 1st person shooter.
Austin wrote:
Martin III wrote:The Saturn, a system supported by the same company and from the same era, got more RPGs in its first two years than the Dreamcast did in its lifetime. So really, you could as easily make the same argument in favor of the Jaguar's RPG lineup. :P
It wasn't so much an argument as much as it was a simple statement. However, I think you may have your facts wrong. Let's see:

RPGs on the US Dreamcast from 1999 - 2001:

Time Stalkers
Evolution
Evolution 2
Grandia II
Skies of Arcadia
Record of Lodoss War
Phantasy Star Online/Phantasy Star Online V2

That's discounting EGG, as it's more Zelda-esque than anything. That's also discounting that you can play Phantasy Star II and Shining Force via the Sega Smash Pack. Aaaand I went ahead and discounted Silver as well, because I don't remember if it was XP oriented or not.. It's been a while since I played it. It may very well just be in the action/adventure genre.

RPGs on the US Saturn from 1995 - 1997:

Shining the Holy Ark
Dragon Force (strat/rpg)
Mystaria/Blazing Heroes
Albert Odyssey
Virtual Hydlide

..a few extra in 1998, the Saturn's last year in the US: Shining Force III and Panzer Dragoon Saga.

That's discounting Magic Knight Rayearth, Legend of Oasis, Shining Wisdom and Dark Savior, as they are more Zelda-esque than anything (action/adventure genre).
Like I said earlier, I don't deny that the Dreamcast did pretty well as far as getting what few RPGs it had localized to North America and Europe. The fact that it has few RPGs to begin with is the issue.

Incidentally, you missed two westernized Saturn RPGs and one westernized Dreamcast RPG... Did you know that many people consider Seventh Cross Evolution an RPG? I haven't played it myself so I can't judge, but I asked someone why he considered it an RPG, and he was able to provide a very convincing explanation.
Austin wrote:
Martin III wrote:Slayer is a niche title, of course. But I don't see reason to rate a game any lower simply because it doesn't have the lowest common denominator as its target audience. Look at it this way: if a game appeals to you, does whether it appeals to the majority of gamers make any difference to your liking for it?
You have a very good point, but comparing a game that is flawed from a technical standpoint to some of the generally-accepted all time greats, leads people like me not to trust your word when you make bold statements like that. Just sayin'. A better comparison may have been Lucienne's Quest. :)
How is Slayer flawed from a technical standpoint? When I first played it, I was astounded that it was actually running on 3DO hardware. Even the Video Game Critic gave props to the game's visuals. And as for "the generally-accepted all time greats", allow me to remind you that there isn't a single 3DO exclusive in any genre which fits that category, simply because of the obscurity of the platform. I don't think it's safe to assume that Slayer wouldn't be considered one of the all-time greats had the 3DO been more successful.

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Trev » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:35 pm

Martin III wrote:
Trev wrote:Again. I don't deny Immerenary has rpg elements, but leveling up alone doesn't neccesarily an rpg make. There are a bunch of rpg staples that Immercenary simply doesn't have. If an avid rpg gamer went into Immercenary thinking it was an rpg, they might be dissapointed by how few (if any) there are of puzzles, magic, side quests, npc's, etc ... There isn't even an party element in Immercenary ... it's you playing solo in a land that (by rpg standards) would be tiny. I personally feel calling Immercenary an rpg is a stretch ... but my point was that Shenmue has lots of elements where an argument could be made that it's an rpg too ... it you played the games through to completion my hunch is that you'd agree.
I'll give Shenmue a shot when I get a chance and let you know. I've been meaning to try the game out for curiosity's sake anyway... after all, it's just collecting dust in my basement storage, so it's not like I have to spend money on it.

As for Immercenary, I'm sorry, but your argument is the same as saying that The Sword of Truth books aren't fantasy because they don't have enough elves and dragons in them. (Actually, a closer analogy would be saying a book isn't fantasy if it doesn't have enough hobbits and evil magic rings, because I find it hard to think of even one video game that has all the elements you list. For starters, Skies of Arcadia is the only game on the Dreamcast which fits your definition!) Genres aren't defined by their staples.

As a side note, the land in Immercenary is even tinier by 1st person shooter standards than it is by RPG standards, so I really don't know why you chose to bring that up if you're advocating the idea that Immercenary is a 1st person shooter.
Definitely check out Shenmue when you can, you'll surely be surprised ... if not by the the gameplay, certainly by what the graphics accomplished for their time. :wink:

I'm not familiar with the books you mentioned ... sorry. And I certainly wasn't setting a rigid definition for how I view rpgs. I realize of course that not every rpg game has the elements I listed ... but certainly more do than do not. And my point was, for Immercenary to be lacking in so many elements that are commonly viewed as part of the genre ... you see what I'm getting at? The more & more rpg elements it lacks, the harder it becomes to fit into the rpg genre. Again, it becomes blurred ... and that isn't a bad thing. 3DO had enough fps imo, so Immercenary straddling genres helps it stand out.

I'm not advocating the idea that Immercenary is a 1st person shooter ... I view it more as a 1st person shooter/adventure blend. A more modern example would be Metroid Prime ... a game in a first person shooter mold that emphasizes exploration & adventure rather than just straight up shooting.
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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Martin III » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:21 pm

Trev wrote:I'm not familiar with the books you mentioned ... sorry.
You don't need to be familiar with them. Indeed, the first time I typed up that paragraph, I had simply "a book" in the place where "The Sword of Truth books" now stand. I thought it might help if I provided a specific example, but the vast majority of what readers generally call fantasy books are similarly lacking in fantasy staples.
Trev wrote:And I certainly wasn't setting a rigid definition for how I view rpgs. I realize of course that not every rpg game has the elements I listed ... but certainly more do than do not. And my point was, for Immercenary to be lacking in so many elements that are commonly viewed as part of the genre ... you see what I'm getting at?
Not really. If a game's gameplay is defined by RPG mechanics, then it's an RPG. If it doesn't contain any of the cliches of RPGs, that just means it's not cliched.

Besides, you could use your same method to systematically prove that Immercenary doesn't belong to any genre. It doesn't have guns, bloodshed, or locked doors, so it can't be a 1st person shooter. It doesn't have puzzles, branching conversations, or areas that can only be entered using certain items, so it can't be an adventure game. And so on. (Heck, let's make a game of it. Name me any video game, and I'll use your technique to prove that it's not a member of the genre that it's generally considered part of.)

Also, as another side note, I really don't think that puzzles and side quests are "commonly viewed as part of the genre". At any rate, you're the first I've heard make that claim, and believe me, I've heard a LOT of discussion about what makes an RPG.

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Trev » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:45 am

Martin III wrote:
Trev wrote:I'm not familiar with the books you mentioned ... sorry.
You don't need to be familiar with them. Indeed, the first time I typed up that paragraph, I had simply "a book" in the place where "The Sword of Truth books" now stand. I thought it might help if I provided a specific example, but the vast majority of what readers generally call fantasy books are similarly lacking in fantasy staples.
Trev wrote:And I certainly wasn't setting a rigid definition for how I view rpgs. I realize of course that not every rpg game has the elements I listed ... but certainly more do than do not. And my point was, for Immercenary to be lacking in so many elements that are commonly viewed as part of the genre ... you see what I'm getting at?
Not really. If a game's gameplay is defined by RPG mechanics, then it's an RPG. If it doesn't contain any of the cliches of RPGs, that just means it's not cliched.

Besides, you could use your same method to systematically prove that Immercenary doesn't belong to any genre. It doesn't have guns, bloodshed, or locked doors, so it can't be a 1st person shooter. It doesn't have puzzles, branching conversations, or areas that can only be entered using certain items, so it can't be an adventure game. And so on. (Heck, let's make a game of it. Name me any video game, and I'll use your technique to prove that it's not a member of the genre that it's generally considered part of.)

Also, as another side note, I really don't think that puzzles and side quests are "commonly viewed as part of the genre". At any rate, you're the first I've heard make that claim, and believe me, I've heard a LOT of discussion about what makes an RPG.
There is a difference between rpg cliches and rpg staples. An rpg story may be cliched for instance (and often is sadly) ... but having a party system is not a cliche in itself (though the characters certainly might be) I only use this as just one example mind you ... but he majority of rpgs have a party system, and Immercenary does not. It is one of many areas where it simply doesn't not mesh with the bulk of rpgs But the same principle applies to the other things I mentioned too.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Besides, you could use your same method to systematically prove that Immercenary doesn't belong to any genre. It doesn't have guns, bloodshed, or locked doors, so it can't be a 1st person shooter" I don't have a "method" and this naturally is a silly (and inaccurate) argument. Immercenary has a bunch of weapons, ammo, etc ... the game prominetly advertises combat as it's key feature! Immercenary's virtual inhabitants may not bleed, but c'mon ... is the SNES version of Wolfenstein not a fps because they edit out the blood? And doors may not be locked pre se, some areas are off limits for a time.

You seem to be agreeing with me (albeit in a different way) when you say Immercenary doesn't belong to any genre ... I've said as much more than once when I said it blurs the line of what genre it falls in. While it has the look of a fps, it plays up adventure elements and has some rpg trappings. I think it makes it a better game, certainly more memorable.

I think more often than not rpgs (at least from the 16 bit era on) have some puzzles and almost certainly side quests. But perhaps it isn't considered a key feature by gamers, Im not sure.

In any event, calling Immercenary an rpg is misleading imo ... which may be why it was never marketed or advertised that way. Even most game mags at the time that reffered to it's light rpg elements still called it a fps.

One thing we can probably agree on though ... Immercenary isn't a casino simulator. :wink:
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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Austin » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:42 pm

Martin III wrote:Incidentally, you missed two westernized Saturn RPGs and one westernized Dreamcast RPG... Did you know that many people consider Seventh Cross Evolution an RPG? I haven't played it myself so I can't judge, but I asked someone why he considered it an RPG, and he was able to provide a very convincing explanation.
Which Saturn ones did I miss? The only ones I can think of that might be lumped into the genre (typically inappropriately) are turn-based strategy games, Heir of Zendor being a good example.

As far as Seventh Cross, no, it's not really a RPG in the sense I'm sure any of us would think. I only played the first hour or so, but you essentially start out as a small amoeba in a small free-roaming 3D environment. Kind of like the Bubbles arcade game by Williams/Midway, you eat/absorb enemies that are around your size, and as you do that, your character morphs and evolves, becoming bigger which then lets you eat enemies that are the next size up, and you do so until you are the dominating force in the area. Then you're supposed to move on from there, but I never bothered.. I'm sure some might consider it a role playing game, and perhaps maybe it becomes a little more RPG like as you progress through the game (apparently you can begin to walk on land, I believe), but I personally wouldn't classify it as one. It's a pretty interesting concept, but nothing that comes off as any type of role playing game to me.
Martin III wrote:How is Slayer flawed from a technical standpoint? When I first played it, I was astounded that it was actually running on 3DO hardware. Even the Video Game Critic gave props to the game's visuals. And as for "the generally-accepted all time greats", allow me to remind you that there isn't a single 3DO exclusive in any genre which fits that category, simply because of the obscurity of the platform. I don't think it's safe to assume that Slayer wouldn't be considered one of the all-time greats had the 3DO been more successful.
Well, it has a pretty damn choppy framerate, for one. Why would you be astounded by it? Plenty of other 3DO games do fully textured 3D environments. It's not like Slayer is special in that regard. Granted, like many 3DO games it was probably impressive when it first came out, but other titles have aged far better from an "impressive" standpoint, like its own follow up, Deathkeep.

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by 3DO Experience » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:57 am

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Martin III » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:08 pm

Trev wrote:There is a difference between rpg cliches and rpg staples. An rpg story may be cliched for instance (and often is sadly) ... but having a party system is not a cliche in itself (though the characters certainly might be) I only use this as just one example mind you ... but he majority of rpgs have a party system, and Immercenary does not. It is one of many areas where it simply doesn't not mesh with the bulk of rpgs But the same principle applies to the other things I mentioned too.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Besides, you could use your same method to systematically prove that Immercenary doesn't belong to any genre. It doesn't have guns, bloodshed, or locked doors, so it can't be a 1st person shooter" I don't have a "method" and this naturally is a silly (and inaccurate) argument. Immercenary has a bunch of weapons, ammo, etc ... the game prominetly advertises combat as it's key feature! Immercenary's virtual inhabitants may not bleed, but c'mon ... is the SNES version of Wolfenstein not a fps because they edit out the blood? And doors may not be locked pre se, some areas are off limits for a time.
You say "I'm not sure what you mean", and then you proceed to restate my implicit point exactly. You're smarter than you think! :)
Trev wrote:You seem to be agreeing with me (albeit in a different way) when you say Immercenary doesn't belong to any genre ... I've said as much more than once when I said it blurs the line of what genre it falls in.
No, Immercenary doesn't blur any lines. It's a straight-up Shooter RPG. Or Role-Playing Shooter, as some people like to call them.

And there I think lies the heart of the problem, Trev: You're under the assumption that to be considered a member of a genre, a game has to be a generic example of the genre. In fact, genres have wide boundaries, not just in video games, but in every art form. People have no problem with putting neo-classical experiments like Curved Air's Airconditioning and jazz fusion offerings like Mahavishnu Orchestra's Birds of Fire under the same "progressive rock" label as the generic Starcastle. Or with throwing hard post-apocalyptic novels like The Death of Grass by John Christopher and far-fetched fantastical fare like Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke under the "science fiction" banner next to stuff like Doc Smith's Skylark books. There's room for everything.

There's a reason for this, too: Genres are no more than a guide to trying and buying. They wouldn't be of any use to us if we designed them to be exclusionary.
Trev wrote:I think more often than not rpgs (at least from the 16 bit era on) have some puzzles and almost certainly side quests.
Either you didn't think that statement through, or you really do have by far the most narrow definition of RPGs I've ever encountered. Look over the games Austin lists as RPGs for the Saturn and Dreamcast.
Trev wrote:In any event, calling Immercenary an rpg is misleading imo ... which may be why it was never marketed or advertised that way. Even most game mags at the time that reffered to it's light rpg elements still called it a fps.
The much more probable explanation is that first person shooters were all the rage at the time, and how well a console could handle one was considered an indicator of how powerful that console is.

I find it funny that, with so many people getting taken aback by the level grinding in Immercenary, you can still say with a straight face that calling it an RPG is the misleading option. As someone who has spent some time on RPG-based forums, let me assure you that we RPG lovers do not expect every RPG to be exactly like Dragon Quest VIII. Quite the contrary.
Austin wrote:
Martin III wrote:How is Slayer flawed from a technical standpoint? When I first played it, I was astounded that it was actually running on 3DO hardware. Even the Video Game Critic gave props to the game's visuals. And as for "the generally-accepted all time greats", allow me to remind you that there isn't a single 3DO exclusive in any genre which fits that category, simply because of the obscurity of the platform. I don't think it's safe to assume that Slayer wouldn't be considered one of the all-time greats had the 3DO been more successful.
Well, it has a pretty damn choppy framerate, for one. Why would you be astounded by it? Plenty of other 3DO games do fully textured 3D environments. It's not like Slayer is special in that regard. Granted, like many 3DO games it was probably impressive when it first came out, but other titles have aged far better from an "impressive" standpoint, like its own follow up, Deathkeep.
The framerate seemed pretty consistent to me. What impressed me was the level of detail and the fact that you roam very large open areas with no noticeable slowdown. Heck, it took me a few moments to realize that the intro where the character gets ambushed wasn't full motion video. As for "impressive when it first came out", I can't imagine any other benchmark that you would apply for this discussion. Do you truly believe any gamer would find Deathkeep, Ys Books I and II, and Chrono Trigger "impressive" if you told him they were developed in 2013 for a modern console?

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Re: I want my casino simulator

Post by Trev » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:15 pm

Martin III wrote:
Trev wrote:There is a difference between rpg cliches and rpg staples. An rpg story may be cliched for instance (and often is sadly) ... but having a party system is not a cliche in itself (though the characters certainly might be) I only use this as just one example mind you ... but he majority of rpgs have a party system, and Immercenary does not. It is one of many areas where it simply doesn't not mesh with the bulk of rpgs But the same principle applies to the other things I mentioned too.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Besides, you could use your same method to systematically prove that Immercenary doesn't belong to any genre. It doesn't have guns, bloodshed, or locked doors, so it can't be a 1st person shooter" I don't have a "method" and this naturally is a silly (and inaccurate) argument. Immercenary has a bunch of weapons, ammo, etc ... the game prominetly advertises combat as it's key feature! Immercenary's virtual inhabitants may not bleed, but c'mon ... is the SNES version of Wolfenstein not a fps because they edit out the blood? And doors may not be locked pre se, some areas are off limits for a time.
You say "I'm not sure what you mean", and then you proceed to restate my implicit point exactly. You're smarter than you think! :)


I hardly restated your point, but thanks for the compliment. :wink:
Martin III wrote:
Trev wrote:You seem to be agreeing with me (albeit in a different way) when you say Immercenary doesn't belong to any genre ... I've said as much more than once when I said it blurs the line of what genre it falls in.
No, Immercenary doesn't blur any lines. It's a straight-up Shooter RPG. Or Role-Playing Shooter, as some people like to call them.
Of course it blurs lines ... you yourself list two different genres! View it however you like, but shooters and rpgs are about as distinct genres as they come, and have been since the early days of gaming. Put it this way, turn based rpgs differ from real time rpgs ... but are they not both still rpgs?

It's cool that Immercenary (and other games) can combine elements from multiple genres, but their is no shame in admitting that it's part shooter/part rpg ... it doesn't do either genre disservice, and helps boraden the games appeal.
Martin III wrote:And there I think lies the heart of the problem, Trev: You're under the assumption that to be considered a member of a genre, a game has to be a generic example of the genre.
Nonsense!

But just because a game takes an existing genre and adds some minor elemtnes from other genres, doesn't mean it's still not of it's genre (or that it's created a brand new one) Were that the case, terms such as fps, rpgs, dungeon crawlers, platformers, etc ... would lose much of their meaning. You could then argue almost any game wasn't part of a genre! That's not an argument I want to be part of, and it seems rather silly.
Martin III wrote:
Trev wrote:I think more often than not rpgs (at least from the 16 bit era on) have some puzzles and almost certainly side quests.
Either you didn't think that statement through, or you really do have by far the most narrow definition of RPGs I've ever encountered. Look over the games Austin lists as RPGs for the Saturn and Dreamcast.
I've been gaming since the late 80's, and have owned dozens of systems ... agree with me or not, my opinion is fairly well informed. And simply stating facts about what many rpg games have, is hardly me preaching a personal definition of the genre. :wink:
Martin III wrote:
Trev wrote:In any event, calling Immercenary an rpg is misleading imo ... which may be why it was never marketed or advertised that way. Even most game mags at the time that reffered to it's light rpg elements still called it a fps.
The much more probable explanation is that first person shooters were all the rage at the time, and how well a console could handle one was considered an indicator of how powerful that console is.

A fair assumption perhaps ... but I'd probably disagree. 3DO had plenty of fps type games. The market existied for a next gen for an rpg. More likely, the game was advertised to highlight is main style.
Martin III wrote:I find it funny that, with so many people getting taken aback by the level grinding in Immercenary, you can still say with a straight face that calling it an RPG is the misleading option. As someone who has spent some time on RPG-based forums, let me assure you that we RPG lovers do not expect every RPG to be exactly like Dragon Quest VIII. Quite the contrary.
Who is saying they do? Certainly not me! Otherwise I don't know what else to add to this ... except to repeat that level grinding alone doesn't an rpg make. Clearly you put much more emphasis on this aspect than I do ... not every rpg has level grinding.
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