Jag Homebrew CD vs Cart

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Jag Homebrew CD vs Cart

Post by Anonymous » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:53 pm

A note from 3DOExp:
This topic is an off-shoot that was cut from Kobayashi Maru - Final - Released. In order to preserve clarity in both threads the beginning is quoted & some editing was involved.
sh3-rg wrote:
grimm wrote:I would consider it, had it been a cartridge release.
Cartridges are best left to the kinds of games that require them - ie larger than 2mb single-load titles and those that benefit from the ROM space. KM:F is a single-load, <2mb binary and runs from memory alone - that's how it was designed so it could be played by anyone with a BJL, Jaguar CD, skunkboard, etc. We won't throw such a game onto a cart just because we can, it makes little sense - the CD medium is the perfect and most cost-effective for this one. What is also does is allow for better music and that's something we'll explore in future releases.

Also, it should be pointed out Kobayashi Maru:Final is actually a slight remix of a game that (like all our other game releases for Jaguar and Falcon) can be freely downloaded and played with a flash device or Jag CD. Buying our games supports our Jaguar activities, everything we have ever made from selling Jaguar games (which isn't exaclty loads!) has all gone directly back into our Jaguar game making... for instance, our SFDX release and small ejagfest releases paid for a JagCD unit for CJ and 500 carts chells for future games... the CD Unit CJ bought in turn lead to us making improvments to the Jagtopia free boot CD and memory track support...
sneth wrote:I think the limitations on carts is price. There has been some huge progress on this front, but it's still not very friendly on the wallet.
That's a big part of it. We have a 4mb flash cart design and have produced prototypes to be sure they work as intended. You're right though, they're not cheap (around 25 euros a piece as long as we purchase sufficient quantity at the price point)... then there's boxes, stickers, manuals, overlays, box inserts... it all adds up quickly. Our first cartridge game will be Rebooteroids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dwlr4wHDXE One of the reasons we're going to be producing these CD games over the coming months is to try to raise a little cash to help fund the initial cart release.
grimm wrote:Actually, id pay the higher price for a cartridge release any day compared to a cd-r release.
Kobayashi Maru:Final is supplied on a glass mastered/metal stamped real CD, not a CD-R. As I said earlier, if the game requires a cart that's fine, if not, CD is far less of a financial risk or burden for all involved... if there were more Jaguar fans and more willing to buy CD games, they could be sold at a much, much lower price point, when you glass master a game you have to take a minimum quantity that is far more than you could ever hope to sell but you have to base your end price on what you will see back in sales... all the kind of stuff we hate to be involved with tbh, that's why we've teamed up with RGCD.co.uk to make this happen :-)
grimm wrote:and the laser unit in that would be difficult if not impossible to replace once the cd-r has worn it out prematurely.
It's actually fairly straight forward to replace a Jaguar CD mech, I've done it twice using LinkoVitch's guide.
------------------------------------------

So i take it the cd mech unit in the jaguar cd is readily available then? I was under the impression the company producing it used a particular cd unit for this cd player, Philips was it? If im wrong and you can find a replacement easily thats just great, but if it means butchering another jag cd to cannibalize the cd unit itself, then yes, it IS difficult to replace. I wasnt talking about the skillset needed. i was talking about acquiring the parts

As for cartridges vs cd, pressed or otherwise, its not "best left" one way or the other. Sure, a soundheavy game benefits from the cd media, but if people want this game on cartridge, and are willing to pay for that, i dont see why "its best left on cd". Many collectors of retro games, like myself, prefer cartridge for the obvious benefits that format provides on small retro-size games like this, and they are also more collectible and gives an entirely different feel from a cd... A cd is bland and boring, a physical cartridge gives a lot more character and is nicer to display.

I also never stated this particular game was cd-r or pressed or whatever. But most homebrew releases for consoles ARE cd-r. And my comment about those were generic. No where can you see i was talking about this game in particular. If your game is pressed, good for you. then you, unlike many others, made the better choice for cd media.

As for "rip-off", dont read more into it than you have to. Street Racer on snes, is a blatant rip-off off Super Mario Kart, but is a great kart racer on its own still. Or Atari Karts for that matter. Rip-off doesnt automatically equal bad. its just a rip-off. Im not a great fan of the really early arcade stuff, but your game reminds me of so many different shooters of this style from the early 80s. For me, that does nothing for me, but for someone who loves those types of games, thats a great thing. So again, dont read more into it than what was there. Substitute it for "clone" if you like that word better. To me its the same thing.

And like Austin, i welcome you to the forum.

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Post by sh3-rg » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:29 pm

grimm wrote:Many collectors of retro games, like myself, prefer cartridge for the obvious benefits that format provides on small retro-size games like this, and they are also more collectible and gives an entirely different feel from a cd... A cd is bland and boring, a physical cartridge gives a lot more character and is nicer to display.
Hmmm, I feel differently, a cart is a piece of plastic housing a circuit board, a disc is a piece of plastic... they both sit inside boxes 99% of the time and both allow you to play games on your console :-)

There's only so far you can go to pander to collectors and their whimsies ;-) Joking aside, CDs are perfectly suited to BJL-type games and their price-point matches the efforts put in to a game that takes months to create rather than years. People make games to be played, that's why we release them for free when possible. We've made and distributed around 400 copies of CD games since our first physical release, Beebris, just under 3 years ago and the collectors have been positive about them to the point where we now know exactly how they want their homebrew CD games to sit in their collection (personally I would have liked to have gone the "official Atari" route and made the game in a digipak case but for an additional cost, but the Jaguar fans prefer a DVD Atari-themed case that has become the de-facto standard for aftermarket releases).

I used to be a collector of carts and disc-based games but I understand some people hold carts more dearly than discs, but most Jaguar fans are just happy to be able to own a new game on any media. Maybe you'll feel differently when/if you purchase a Jaguar CD and get to the point where your collection of a dozen of so official releases leaves you wanting more and you look to the likes of Robinsons Requiem and other aftermarket pressed CDs and also homebrews.
grimm wrote:Rip-off doesnt automatically equal bad.
Actually it has undertones of thieving, laziness and downright skulduggery :D but I take your points :P

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Post by 3DO Experience » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:53 pm

Getting back to the CD vs Cart.... I have the Jag CD add-on, but do feel that carts seem to be better for Jag owners simply because there are so many fans out there with no CD unit.

Of course there is a price issue, my god the price of carts!, not to mention having to wiggle the hell out of a cart to make it play. I like being able to just pop in a CD and have it run right from the beginning.

But then there are so many people that can't/don't press CDs and just use CD-Rs but if they don't go to the trouble of pressing a disc can we expect them to actually put the money into making carts?

Also there is a save game issue. If the game has any save data the gamer will have to own a memory cart (I do) but a cart has it's own. But we could use a password system YAY! that only leaves out the whole high score fun.

I also like having Red Book audio on my CD games so I can listen to the sound track, but as I mentioned before a CD would probably less accessible (play-wise) for Jag gamers.
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Post by sh3-rg » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:20 pm

3DO Experience wrote:Getting back to the CD vs Cart.... I have the Jag CD add-on, but do feel that carts seem to be better for Jag owners simply because there are so many fans out there with no CD unit.
There are compelling reasons for cart releases. There are plenty of our friends at the ST/Falcon demo parties that own jaguars and would love copies of our games, but they want a simple plug-in cart and not flash carts or CD add-ons (this is one of the motivating factors helping us aim for cart releases). That's why we'll also offer cart-only as a purchase option, to keep the price as low as possible for those who just want to plug in and play.
3DO Experience wrote:But then there are so many people that can't/don't press CDs and just use CD-Rs but if they don't go to the trouble of pressing a disc can we expect them to actually put the money into making carts?
So far I'm only aware of Songbird doing pressed CDs before us, Robinson's Requiem for sure and possibly more (I don't know, I don't own any of them). Carl was great helping get there with pressed discs, but there were still hurdles to overcome and choosing the right manufacturer to go with was really important (some of the first companies approached were actually just middlemen, taking your CD-R master, then imaging it themselves and FTPing it to the actual manufacture plant... obviously they came back scratching their heads as the Jaguar CD does not conform to the coloured book standards the imaging software uses. Your CD master has to physically end up in the pressing factory and be used to create the glass master directly - only a small fraction of these online CD production companies can actually make that happen, even fewer that are actually a branch of the production facility itself).
3DO Experience wrote:Also there is a save game issue. If the game has any save data the gamer will have to own a memory cart (I do) but a cart has it's own. But we could use a password system YAY! that only leaves out the whole high score fun.
Yeah, a few Jagware games have tried to get around that with online high score tables and webcodes, but the participation hasn't exactly been overwhelming unless a competition is involved along side).

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:43 pm

3DO Experience brings a valid point, Jag CD owners are much fewer than jaguar owners..

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Post by sh3-rg » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:03 pm

grimm wrote:3DO Experience brings a valid point, Jag CD owners are much fewer than jaguar owners..
But they're also the most hardcore of fans and collectors. There are few serious Jaguar collectors who do not own the CD unit. Away from that, Jaguar gaming fans are likely to own a skunk board, BJL or something similar or at least have access to a PC and Virtual Jaguar if they do not own the Jag CD.

There are very few people who we cannot reach with our games in some way or another.

Actually, if you compare the last few releases on cartridge vs those on CD, most would agree that it's been the CD games that have been the better and more complete efforts. Of course, only those who have played them all would know for sure.

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:12 pm

I personally am mostly hampered by my economy when it comes to these things. I call myself a serious gamer collector, as i only collect games i want to actually play. I have a few hundred games spread across 10 or so consoles. Not just to collect for collecting's sake but to actually play them, and most i have.

I did manage to buy a skunkboard though, but i still prefer to buy homebrew games on actual cartridge, with box and manual too. It just looks nice and gives me personally a nicer feeling, than just playing a rom or whatever the format may be called off the skunkboard.. For example, Blackout! is not a game im crazy about, but i did buy it, and i do take it out and play occasionally, its a nice box and label etc.. I like supporting homebrewers like yourself when i can, and i find the game interesting. I have used the skunkboard as sort of a demo platform too though, and recently ordered Iron Soldier after having tried it out first, alongside that weird mutant penguin game.

I would love to own a jaguar cd, but even if the price of buying one new off BE Electronics or from that other atari shop online is decent, shipping and import related charges keeps me from getting one so far. Even then, i would require a cd to be glass mastered as you called it, if i was to buy a game for it. I dont want to put unecessary wear on a pricey investment by using cd-r which most seem to use.

Aside from me personally, i think there are plenty of so called serious collectors who play the games, who have not managed to get their hands on a jag cd or skunkboard. they all command rather high prices when they come up for sale after all.

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Post by sh3-rg » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:24 pm

grimm wrote:I would love to own a jaguar cd, but even if the price of buying one new off BE Electronics or from that other atari shop online is decent, shipping and import related charges keeps me from getting one so far. Even then, i would require a cd to be glass mastered as you called it, if i was to buy a game for it. I dont want to put unecessary wear on a pricey investment by using cd-r which most seem to use.
They are not cheap and considering how unreliable they can be (we had a brand new unti arrive DOA from Telegames :( ) I can understand people not wanting to put any undue stress on them.

But most of the talk concerning the unreliability of the CD unit comes from people attempting to use CD-R media with them. They were never designed to read them and most units will not be happy with most brands of CD-R. Matthias seems to have found an exceptionally reliable product for his Impulse X game, I have loaded the game over 20 times and not once seen the (?) screen - that's almost unheard of!

Import charges are a killer. I got hammered when I purchased three skunkboards a little while back - it was like buying a 4th I never received ;-) I feel your pain there.

I was thinking about your love of carts earlier when something occurred to me. For all the convenience and reliability of a whack-it-in-and-play-instantly cartridge, what you're buying there isn't the same as buying an official Atari cart with manufactured chips, you're buying a board full of eproms - that's something I'm always just a tiny little wary of. Some aftermarket games are on proprietary flash carts (I think Songbird does this), but homebrews so far have all been eprom carts as far as I know, including the beta releases etc. Just like CD-R media, they won't last forever (but then again, neither will real CDs but to a lesser extent :-) )

Anonymous

Post by Anonymous » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:39 pm

You know the hardware side of things much better than i do. And maybe Eproms dont last as long as "original" roms or whatever those are called. But they dont put extra strain on the hardware itself, that was my point about cd-r. Not that it doesnt last forever. None of this stuff will.

But in all fairness, will an eprom really lose its info or be corrupted in the forsee-able future? Do you know?

As for carts themselves, they are nicer to display... Take out the inlay, sit the cartridge up on it and tilt the manual against it with the box in the background. Looks much nicer than opening up a DVD-box doesnt it?

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Post by sh3-rg » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:48 pm

grimm wrote:But they dont put extra strain on the hardware itself, that was my point about cd-r.
I'm not so sure there's any excessive wear and tear on the jag CD using CD-R media. Maybe if you're playing copied games that have several minutes of CD audio on there or cinepak video, but a single 2mb maximum of data each time you load a game, that's got to be almost negligible (afaik, this is what all homebrews I know of so far consist of - basically a single load into memory of a BJL-type game, after that, the CD stops and it's off, I can only think of maybe Orion's disc and possibly something by starcat with more than that on the disc).
grimm wrote:But in all fairness, will an eprom really lose its info or be corrupted in the forsee-able future? Do you know?
Highly unlikely, I was thinking more of it looking the same on the outside and not being the same on the inside (hand-soldered eproms vs machine soldered manufactured components). i suppose the soldering is more likely to be iffy and unreliable than a case of bit-rot.
grimm wrote:As for carts themselves, they are nicer to display... Take out the inlay, sit the cartridge up on it and tilt the manual against it with the box in the background. Looks much nicer than opening up a DVD-box doesnt it?
I can see why some might say that, yes, but TBH, not really for me, nope. I appreciate the games themselves and also the designs and layout of the packaging more than anything (that's why I'm so obsessed by cheap Chinese knock-off famicom carts from back in the day.. the games.. meh on the whole, but the crazy labels they came up with - hell yes! ;-) )

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Post by Anonymous » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:59 pm

So most homebrew games on the jaguar only load once? I see, i did not know that. That does like you say probably make cd-r's more strainful stuff less significant yes.

As for looking the same on the outside but not the same inside, that doesnt really matter in a display setting, as i dont think most collectors would actually break the cartridge open to display the PCB itself. So in that regard personally it can be a repro cartridge, as long as it looks nice and authentic (not necessarily straight off counterfeit, just "official-looking", like they do alot for SNES).

I agree, asian artwork is always more interesting and displayworthy than western. Especially when it comes to j-rpg's...

I fear we are again getting way off topic though.. Interesting discussion as it is...

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Post by sh3-rg » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:29 pm

grimm wrote:So most homebrew games on the jaguar only load once? I see, i did not know that. That does like you say probably make cd-r's more strainful stuff less significant yes.
Yes, most CD homebrews are written as single-load BJL type games, they work nicely from CD as you just fire them up with a little loader and you're away. That's what our ULS tool does - it takes BJL-type binaries and replaces the 2mb or so in the universal ULS CD image, meaning you don't have the hassle of having to run the hashing on the initial burn and then burn a 2nd copy with the hash info replaced to create a normal, bootable CD.

Games where you have a CD version and identical cart version usually do the same thing - the cart just has a little loader into memory and doesn't do anything after that.

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Post by Anonymous » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:42 pm

Great, thanks for educating me about jaguar homebrew in that way.

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Post by 3DO Experience » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:34 pm

Yup, we are going off topic but derailing posts are very common here. I've already decided this topic merits it's own thread, but I'll wait to split it (& adjust this post) when I'm not using my phone.
But they're also the most hardcore of fans and collectors. There are few serious Jaguar collectors who do not own the CD unit. Away from that, Jaguar gaming fans are likely to own a skunk board, BJL or something similar or at least have access to a PC and Virtual Jaguar if they do not own the Jag CD.
This was something I wanted to post on as well but I was supposed to be getting ready to travel rather then posting so I cut things short. I wonder how many people that are big enough fans of the Jag to buy homebrew would already have a CD unit. You expect they would have one, or at least tried, I know they aren't the easiest to get. So maybe the cart for people w/out CD units is negligible.
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Post by T2KFreeker » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:36 pm

Yeah, most of the Homebrew games are so small they can be loaded directly into the on board memory of the Jaguar.
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Post by sh3-rg » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:10 pm

T2KFreeker wrote:Yeah, most of the Homebrew games are so small they can be loaded directly into the on board memory of the Jaguar.
That's mostly by design though and also the legacy of BJL/Jag Server. The desire to spread games far and wide means targeting the Jag's memory for a title means lots of people are going to be able to play it in some way or another. When you think of it, 2mb is actually no smaller than plenty of the Jaguar's commercial game ROM library (2mb ROMs were fairly common AFAIK).

There are even some commercial 2mb Jaguar games that use very little compression on the included assets, just huge lumps of raw sample and/or graphics data in there, and then they have the luxury of the whole 2mb of RAM to play with as well. Compare that to a homebrew such as SuperFly DX that includes almost 1mb of graphics before compression and over 1mb of audio before compression - that's 2mb before you even consider the actual game itself, audio replay code, memory track management, etc. etc. and it all runs from memory, constantly depacking assets to a reserved area of memory ready for use in each level/stage/menu ;-)

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Post by 3DO Experience » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:24 pm

3DO Experience wrote:
But they're also the most hardcore of fans and collectors. There are few serious Jaguar collectors who do not own the CD unit. Away from that, Jaguar gaming fans are likely to own a skunk board, BJL or something similar or at least have access to a PC and Virtual Jaguar if they do not own the Jag CD.
This was something I wanted to post on as well but I was supposed to be getting ready to travel rather then posting so I cut things short. I wonder how many people that are big enough fans of the Jag to buy homebrew would already have a CD unit. You expect they would have one, or at least tried, I know they aren't the easiest to get. So maybe the cart for people w/out CD units is negligible.
Oh yeah, I was going to add it is not easy to come by a Skunkboard. I had heard that there was work on a new flash cart by the scene but I don't know how far along that is. Plus I recall reading about how the Jag community don't like the idea of flash carts because they are afraid people are going to use it for playing ROMs of commercial games as opposed to homebrew.
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Post by Anonymous » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:53 pm

I am not deep within the jaguar scene myself, but it does seem like there is a big shunning of playing roms on the skunkboard, at least by the "big names" at jaguar sector 2, where i do my jaguar related forum posts.

The skunkboard i believe is now entirely sold out (and they wont make more), and some guy on ebay is already doubling the price on a Ghost-revision/version which i think was the last skunkboard revision/version made.

I still think its worth at least doing a vote before releasing a game to see if there is more interest in a cartridge release, vs a cd release, even with additional cost. Another World is doing a pre-order thing (no after-sales at all), to verify demand before manufacturing and printing the game and artwork. That i believe is a valid way to go, whilst still meeting demand. If demand then goes beyond pre-order, you can make another batch the same way.

You can of course go this road for a cd release too, but people willing to pay €60+ for Another World before the game is even made i think is a good indication that cartridge is attractive to many jaguar owners.

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Post by sneth » Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:05 pm

I've never seen the Jag community shun skunkboard or similar devices. There are quite a few similar hardware items in the queue. Skunkboard releases come and go enough that you can get one pretty easily.

Carts only became a more viable option recently.
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Post by Anonymous » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:02 pm

I didnt say the jag community shun the skunkboard or similar devices, i said several big names on jaguar sector 2 are shunning roms of commercial games being used on it. Tursi wont even help you get them running if you run into issues running a commercial rom for example. they will gladly help you run homebrew on it though. Im not technical at all and had some issues trying to get several homebrews to work, that resulted in a list being brought to that thread where you could download ready to play files of most, if not all, homebrews made for the jaguar.

Tursi, and Goatstore, has made it pretty clear there will be no more skunkboards as the components for the design are no longer available from manufacturers, or something like that. If they make an entirely new product thats one thing, but i was talking about the skunkboard only, and that is out of production now. Ask them yourself if you dont believe me, they have clearly stated this several times now. Tursi even released the rights or something to it not too long ago.

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Post by sh3-rg » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:03 pm

3DO Experience wrote:Oh yeah, I was going to add it is not easy to come by a Skunkboard. I had heard that there was work on a new flash cart by the scene but I don't know how far along that is. Plus I recall reading about how the Jag community don't like the idea of flash carts because they are afraid people are going to use it for playing ROMs of commercial games as opposed to homebrew.
There are a few new flash cart projects. The Jagware one, "Jagtopus", is going to be used to put out games such as Another World, Elansar and Rebooteroids. The designer even made an SD-based 4-cart gang flasher to speed up cart production (I'll hopefully be getting my hand on one of these beauties fairly soon). There is no plan to release Jagtopus as an end-user device, it was considered, but it's really a means to an end - releasing games. Other devices promise to be much more useful to end users and more flexible in their use.

There was plenty of talk in the past concerning fears of piracy but it was massively over-stated and mostly used as leverage in countless pointless arguments. Bar a few bootlegs of over-valued homebrews on CD-R and the odd rumour of BS/G repro carts, there's no evidence that this ever went on at all - just a lot of needless fear/uncertainty/doubt all embarrassingly and prominently plastered throughout the popular forums doing little for the reputation of the Jaguar and its fans.

Since the skunkboard came out, the device has ended up in the hands of hundreds of end users and a nice handful of developers. Have Jaguar game prices crashed? Of course not, they have continued to rise even through financially testing times. Tursi has stated he and kskunk had a difficult time convincing the "powers that be" that the skunkboard would be a safe and productive device to unleash on the Jaguar userbase. In the end, some people bought it to add one more cartridge to their collection and didn't even learn how to use it (seriously!), others found it a great device to let them try out unreleased and unfinished games and also homebrews... devs saw it and decided the jaguar looked like a platform of possibilities now and came to the platform.. and, yeah, some kids used it to play a few ROMs of games they didn't own. Any future devices won't see such scrutiny and distrust - it'll simply be accepted that flash devices are " a very good thing" after the skunkboard paved the way.

Similarly, in the same sort of period the skunk came out, Jaguar emulation become much better even on lesser hardware... again... no mysterious price crash in the Jaguar games market... what has actually happened is VJ has proved to be very useful to developers, it's allowed the curious to dip their toe into Jaguar waters and it's promoted the scene further than ever before.

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Post by Anonymous » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:18 pm

I like flash carts for the purpose of trying out games on it, before buying them, and personally i dont mind that the skunkboard only has room for 1 or 2 games at a time. Youtube-videos help while checking out new games, but you still arnt able to try it out before buying. I have used my skunkboard to try out commercial roms as well as homebrews, and that has resulted in several purchases for my slowly but steadily growing jag game collection. Its the only system i have a flash cart of sorts for though.

I am not a programmer by any means, so i wont be using the skunboard as a tool to develop games or software, but thats what it was intended to do like sh3-rg explained, and thats a good thing.

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Post by T2KFreeker » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:13 am

Speaking as a Jaguar CD system owner, with all the talk of unrelaibility of the Drive has been weird. I have had no problems with the CD systems I have owned except once, which was quite shocking. The fact that the system will not read Taiyo Yuden Gold Master CD-r's is weird. However, I have learned from experience with homebrews on any system that if you are goi9ng to use CD-r materials, the higher quality, the better. Philips, Fuji, and TDK seem to be the best bet thus far for me.

On an opinion side of things too, I'd much rather have a cart for a release I feel really benefits from the media. Carst are expensive to manufacture, and if you have 4mb chips, for example, because it might be the only thing you could get, but then the game is only 1.5 mb's, seems like a waste of a chip when it could be run from a FAR cheaper CD or through BJL. Plus you are paying $80.00 or so for a small as Hell game. Out of This World is releasing for Jaguar finally, and Impulse X both seem to fit the cart option just fine. However, the option to get Impulse X on CD was really damn nice. Then again, having the CD Drive has made making the decision easy, so I can generally play everything that releases on the system.

In the end, if I pay $80.00 for a game and it doesn't feel worth it on a cart, which I sadly felt for BlackOut!, then I get a little irritated. You build me something to the quality of say, Iron Soldier though, I'd be all over it. Just not something we see very often in the Jaguar community though. CD's aren't bad because, especially if it is a free download, if I get it and I don't like it, the game was free, just cost me the price of a CD-r, much lower than that of a Cart.
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Post by 3DO Experience » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:26 am

Good points. I like CD for not having to wiggle the hell out of a cart to make it work. Price is also good but if a CD-R is going to wear down my lens I'd prefer a cart or at least a stamped CD.

As for the Skunkboard and flash carts in general I am more like grimm, I use them as a try-before-you-buy. Especially when it comes to Japanese games. I have a list of games I might want to buy but the prices can be up there or maybe there are just a lot of titles in the series. Like Parodius, there are a bunch of them but what ones (or all) did I want. I sit down for 10-15 mins with each, now I know the ones I want to buy and whether I enjoy it enough to want it with box and manual or just a loose cart.
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Post by Anonymous » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:13 pm

Ive only had to wiggle one cartridge to make it work (at least from what i can remember), and that thing was brand new... That was Cannon Fodder for the Jaguar. Then again i havent owned a NES in 20-25 years... There are many ways to clean and refresh contacts and connections, from pure alcohol to erasers and those could help you avoid wiggling with cartridges. I find if you rub with alcohol first, and use an eraser, and then goes back to alcohol, you can get them pretty much as good as new. Ports are naturally a little harder to clean.

True, ports will eventually slacken up making for more finicky connections, but i dont think their lifespan is shorter than a cd drive unit, most probably much longer. Its just a matter of how you are able to keep things shining clean and dust free, which is a problem with the Jaguar... (curse you designers for saving a cent or two by not having a dustflap!)

I do remember one thing tho.. ive never given a nes cartridge a blow job, i always kept my games in their boxes, even as a kid.

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Post by 3DO Experience » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:43 pm

grimm wrote:ive never given a nes cartridge a blow job
:lol: I like the way you word that!

No I've cleaned connectors on both carts and system, I think the system connections need to be bent back into place possibly. Just about every cart I need to wiggle; but when I put them in the CD add-on they generally boot right up. I don't know how many jags have connector issues I just assumed they were all like mine.
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Post by Trev » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:49 pm

I've never had to wiggle a Jag cart to make it work ... ever. I've owned several since 1995 with no issues of that kind, thankfully.

My Nes carts on the other hand, I wiggle all the time in an effort to get them to run! Thankfully I've done it so often that it's almost second nature now.
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Post by Anonymous » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:24 pm

3DO Experience wrote:
grimm wrote:ive never given a nes cartridge a blow job
:lol: I like the way you word that!

No I've cleaned connectors on both carts and system, I think the system connections need to be bent back into place possibly. Just about every cart I need to wiggle; but when I put them in the CD add-on they generally boot right up. I don't know how many jags have connector issues I just assumed they were all like mine.
Thanks, it was intentional to hopefully make someone chuckle.

Anyway, not speaking from personal experience, since i bought a brand new pal jag so the port is in excellent condition, but i hear the jag's port is really difficult to "bend back", and people have advice against it, that you can actually damage more than just the port in the process. I know you can buy motherboards from B&E electronics, or whatever the name of that webshop is (big atari store anyway), to replace yours with, if it is so troublesome. Its not too expensive..

I was however talking of cartridge ports in general and not jag in particular, so snes, megadrive/genesis, etc are all included in my experience. My new snes sns-101 (junior) has a very loose fit, but no connection issues, so it might be getting them. So looking into getting a replacement, but it requires soldering unlike my regular snes's..

I also didnt mean to suggest you dont clean your stuff. Sometimes you just need to be extremely thourough, where usually just a good rub off does the trick.

Anywho, for retro gaming where space is not too much an issue, i definetly prefer cartridges. I dont like buying used cd based games because they look like someone rubbed metal whool on it most of the times.. So thats another plus for the cartridge, durability around careless owners. You can only resurface a cd so many times, and if the scratch is very deep, its unfixable. A cartridge you can often repair even if its broken.

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Post by T2KFreeker » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:24 am

Contect cleaner is an awesome thing. Keeps from giving the carts and ports Blowjobs all around. :lol: And it's cheap too.
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Re: Jag Homebrew CD vs Cart

Post by Retrofanatic83 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:59 am

The whole homebrew scene is cool and appealing. I have only paid for (and yet to receive) one such game, Another World. I do like the original Jaguar and cartridge. I might be sad but I do enjoy the labels and just seeing the cart running in the machine. I completely understand and appreciate the case for making the games on cd but I would say for special enough games that they know will sell it is a cool way to to and appeases the cart fans. I don't own a jaguar cd myself but likely one day if I can find a good one I will but as I play a lot of other stuff my need for one isn't great. I do also feel put off by fears of unrliability, justified or not they may be. Paying over £100 for say an unboxed maybe slightly scratched one isn't my style and some of the mint or close to it complet ones at more like £250...maybe one day

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